[00:00:00] Tim Forkin: If you want to sell more courses this year, you need to watch this video because you could be completely overlooking the most important part of your marketing. This is Billy Broas. He’s been in the digital marketing world for 10 plus years. And recently he hopped in our HeyCreator community to give an excellent presentation about using arguments in your marketing arguments.
Well, we’re not talking disagreements or name calling. We’re talking about making your course a no brainer buy for your audience. And today we’re going to go through his exact process to do that. Let me pass it to Matt to kick us off. Hey creators.
[00:00:30] Matt Ragland: Welcome to this really fun, really exciting session that I’m pumped about.
I want to go ahead and do the first introduction to my friend, uh, Billy, who’s an excellent copywriter messaging expert. He’s got a book coming out. Somebody that I’ve learned a lot from when it comes to course launch and design and messaging. So Billy, just want to say, say welcome. Really glad that you’re here.
Hey, thanks, Matt. Yeah, pumped to be here. This is going to be fun. Share a little bit about your background. I know you’ve worked with a lot of great creators. I’ve given people, uh, some prep here with the folks that you’ve worked with, the way that you think about, uh, messaging and sales and courses. So I’ll let you, I’ll let you take it away here.
I’ll probably turn off my video for, for a couple of minutes and we’ll just let you do, do your thing. Cause I know, I know it’s awesome.
[00:01:17] Billy Broas: Yeah, in your crew, people probably best know, uh, as far as people I’ve worked with, Ali Abdaal, Tiago Forte, uh, people over the past few years, mainly who I’ve worked with, although I’ve been doing this since 2000 and by this, I mean, primarily as a marketing consultant, uh, behind the scenes marketing brain is how I would describe myself to more front stage, front of the house, entrepreneurs, creators.
So Ali Abdaal and Tiago Forte, David Perel, uh, Leila Gharani, she’s in the Excel space. I’ve been working with them a lot the past few years, but I’ve been doing this since 2014. And then before that, I was running my own online business in the home beer brewing space of all things. So I got into this, you know, I don’t have the traditional marketing background.
I was very much in school. Like I wasn’t that, that outgoing, like salesy person who like had a bunch of businesses when they were 12 years old. I wasn’t that person whatsoever. I was a Latin nerd. In high school, a science nerd, and then went into the scientific field. I was in clean energy, um, you know, a largely engineering focused field.
So nothing to do with sales or marketing. Um, but like everyone here, I am sure the fact that you’re here means that you have that entrepreneurial itch, you know, Matt, like I know that you have. And so I had that. So after seven years, I had to leave. The, the, the corporate world, which easier said than done.
Right. And so it took me a number of years to do that. It definitely wasn’t like a lot of these stories you see where I launched an online course and then said, see you later to my boss the very next day. It took a while. It took a while to build it up and to figure out what the heck I was doing. And so that beer brewing website, it was, uh, it was a website where I had a blog and then I layered online courses on top of that.
Uh, that was my bridge out of the nine to five world. And fortunately it’s been, excuse me, it’s been, uh, almost, uh, it’s been a decade since I left that business, uh, sorry, since I left that company. So that brings me to where
[00:03:14] Matt Ragland: I’m, I’m really glad you made the point because it’s, it’s my story. I think it’s a more common, even if it’s a less sexy creator story to be like, Hey, yeah, this took, this took a little while.
This took like a number of years. Like I know for me, like I was very intentionally working on my side hustle and my courses for three years, my YouTube channel before I had anywhere close to the amount of not just like financial runway, of course, well, mine was a little different because like I had, uh, like two kids at the time that I was, uh, think that I was thinking about, but.
Yeah, I, the number of, the number of stories we hear of like my course did 50K, 100K and I quit the next week versus the reality of, yeah, this took, this took a few years. And so I’m glad, I’m glad you brought that up just to kind of ground us in like, there are opportunities. I think that’s part of the itch and that’s part of the allure of entrepreneurship and creator content is like these big spikes can happen at, at any given time, but we kind of have to prepare ourselves for the long haul.
Also,
[00:04:20] Billy Broas: yeah, my, my favorite virtue is humility and it’s not what we think of when we think of humility. It’s not like the all shocks or like the, well, I don’t brag kind of humility. It’s more of the take small steps every day, kind of humility, and realize that you’re a beginner and these things take time and you’re figuring it out.
And that really is that that’s the way I recommend you approach it. I’m glad I didn’t have like some huge splash right away. I made a ton of money right away. I would have blown it anyways. And then I would have been right back at square one. So I’m glad that I had those. Yeah,
[00:04:52] Matt Ragland: it definitely gives it a more like grounded sequential approach to how, how you want to build.
And I think that another like hidden or like a silver lining of the gradual approach is that you really get to build something on your own terms and that, you know, aligns with your lifestyle. And I know this isn’t necessarily what we were going to talk about today just yet, but, uh, I know you’ve seen it.
I’ve seen it too. People who like go viral or have a big hit pretty early. I think in some ways, like a lot of us would still kind of sign up for that. Cause it’s nice to start from such like what feels like have such a headstart on things. But when you go big on something. Before you really know what your lifestyle or what your brand or what your messaging is like, you can inadvertently get locked in to like a particular type of product or topic or niche.
If you’re like two, three years later, like, I don’t know, I don’t want to talk about this thing anymore. I can, the number of people who got like locked into Notion. As like a topic just because like their first like template or course did really well. And like three years later, they’re like, that’s my, like, that’s my whole identity.
Now is like doing notion. And like, I had a little bit of that, even with just the bullet journal.
[00:06:02] Billy Broas: You’re totally. Yeah. And I talk about this a lot where I say that with the beer business, I missed the YouTube train. Totally. I mean, I was in the perfect spot for it because I mean, I graduated college 2000.
Um, From grad school, 2007 and 2008 was grad school. And then, then I started this online business and I was right when YouTube was coming out. Right. And I did, I put a couple of things on there. I had a few hundred subscribers on YouTube for the beer business, but I didn’t go all in on it. And you might say, wow, I missed the boat on that one.
Cause I could have this huge homebrewing channel, but I didn’t want to be the beer guy my whole life. And that would have really locked me in. And if I had this huge channel when it came time, cause I knew that it was time to move on and start working, get into this, I’ve started working with other people.
Like the Tiago Forte’s and Ali Abdaal’s, uh, it would have been tougher to leave if I had this, this big YouTube channel. So, yeah, no regrets there.
[00:06:51] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Well, let’s start talking about like courses and sales and launches specifically. And one of the things that you and I were talking about before, myths about course launches.
And I think we’ve already like kind of. Talked about a couple of them, uh, in an indirect way, like a myth is that, yeah, they’re, they’re all just going to crush one F one after another, or that’s your first one will, uh, be the thing that you need to power the rest of your business for another, for 10 years.
Um, like those are kind of indirect ways that we’ve kind of talked about it so far, but, uh, like we can go back and forth on this, but what are some other like myths about course launches? Um, and things that you’ve seen in the work that you’ve done with like Tiago, David, Ollie, and others.
[00:07:34] Billy Broas: Yeah, so to make a real long story short, what I realized was that I had to learn this marketing thing, right?
So I was trying to figure out this beer website and how to sell these online courses. And I went into it kind of cocky because like I said, I went to grad school and got my MBA. So I’m like, Oh, I’m this awesome business guy. Now I got my MBA, right? Uh, yet I couldn’t sell a 49 beer. But the fact of the matter is that type of schooling just doesn’t prepare you for what we’re doing here.
They don’t teach you sales, marketing, copywriting, negotiation. Sadly, I think they should, but they don’t. So I had to learn that on my own. And so I had to learn this, this, this new type of marketing that I hadn’t been exposed to before. And I tried a lot of things. And what I discovered was that it’s just wired into me that I’m always trying to find the highest ROI activity.
I’m trying to find leverage. Maybe it’s because I have this engineering background, but I’m trying to find the needle mover. So as I was exploring this marketing landscape, that’s what my antennas were tuned for. Like, okay, what’s the thing where I can put in one unit of energy and get 10 units of output?
Because we all know that not everything is created equal. And that’s a big thing you have to realize. Especially when you’re reading online marketing advice, everyone thinks that third thing is the most important thing that everything has equal weight, of course, but I discovered that no, like fiddling with my WordPress plugins is not the highest leverage activity.
All this software I’m using is these, these pop ups, pop ups, plugins, social media, social media, posting all this crap. What I discovered was that I can just rewrite a headline on a sales page and double my sales. Yep.
[00:09:00] Matt Ragland: Yeah. It’s like, uh, our friend, cause you’ve worked with, uh, Khe, right. Khe is 10, 10 K work analogy.
It’s like, you know, the fiddling with plugins or like fixing something minor on your website. Like that’s the 100 an hour work, maybe 1, 000 an hour work. But rewriting a great headline, putting in the hours that requires to make that, the 10K work, that’s what really like, That’s what really changes things.
[00:09:27] Billy Broas: Yeah. And I gave that to Khe. I was coaching Khe and I had him do this exercise on a call where I said, and I got this from Perry Marshall and he got it from somewhere else. That’s the 80 20 rule. And I said, Khe, right. Great example, Matt. Yeah. Make, make four columns. So you have 10 an hour work, a hundred dollars an hour work, a thousand dollars an hour work, 10, 000 an hour work.
Now list all the tasks that you’re doing under the appropriate heading. How many are under 1 an hour or tons or 10 an hour, whatever the low one versus 10, 000 an hour. Typically, we don’t have very many underneath there, right? And the goal is to move things to the 10k work and to delegate the rest. So that mindset, that 80 20 thinking, if you want to call it that, I’m just wired for that.
And so, um, so after a few, and it takes time though, right? Like it takes experience to notice these things. It’s like, it’s the difference between experience and time.
And so anyways, the upshot is messaging was the thing, which should really be no surprise. You change your words, you change your result, and the words are upstream of everything else. They’re more, they’re upstream of your marketing channels. So they’re upstream of Facebook or email or YouTube or whatever.
And the words are upstream of the marketing tactics you use. So things like viral giveaways and upsells and downsells and countdown timers and all that jazz. So I said, okay, well, 80 20 rule, right? Like find a thing that works best and delete everything, stop doing everything else. That’s not. So that’s what I did.
So I described myself as a T shaped marketer where I had this broad skill set, but I went all in on messaging because that was my experience. The highest, highest leverage activity I could engage in.
[00:11:02] Matt Ragland: Yeah, I want to encourage everybody as you’re listening to this, as you’re watching it, think about like, what is your T shape in like, what is the thing that you’re going to go like really deep on that can be the differentiating factor in like the way that you prepare your products, the way that you reach out and talk to your customers, potential subscribers, like what is that thing for you that is going to move the needle more than everything else combined.
[00:11:26] Billy Broas: Exactly. And so let me dive into some of these, these myths that we talked about. So, and these are ones that, that I believed, you know, that, uh, you know, what they, or what people think that a course launch is about. I think it’s about creating buzz because we think of marketing, we think buzz, we think loud, we think shouting, we think hype.
We think about hyping your course, we think about a flurry of activity. We think about posting to social media, uh, sending a whole bunch of emails and it’s really, Like that stuff matters. But again, if we’re looking at the highest leverage activity, it’s not these things. And so, you know, and even in preparing this presentation, because I just, I just finished a book and when you go through asking when he’s written a book, it really makes you crystallize your thoughts.
And so now I’m on the other side of this book. It’s coming out next month and it’s changed my thinking and it’s always a distillation process, right? So, you know, you mentioned the five light bulbs, which is my messaging framework. So what I did, cause I went all in on messaging. I was like, okay, well now I need to create a framework messaging.
Cause I think in terms of frameworks, I need to create a framework for this, but then, you know, we’re going to save that. We’ll mention the five light bulbs at the end. Cause I’m asking myself, Matt, for your presentation here for mass presentation. I could talk about course launches for days, but again, what’s the most use of the 60 minutes that I have with you and your crew here, how can I deliver the most value?
Well, it’s gotta be the highest ROI thing I can give you. Right? So although I can talk about like launch timelines and social media posting schedules, and even the five light bulbs, I want to get more, even more axiomatic than that, even more foundational than that. And, and so, and writing the book. is what led me to this thinking.
So I’m really excited for this presentation. It was fun to put this teaching together for you. And, and so what I want to stress today is that it’s really not about all these things that you see on the screen, your course launch. If you want to take away one thing from this presentation, it’s going to make the biggest difference is to think about marketing your course as making an argument and not like a road rage or fighting with your spouse, kind of an argument.
Okay. We really. I’m a big fan of like lost wisdom. I asked like, okay, well, there’s a lot of technology now. I think it’s moving really fast in society, but what have we forgotten? And we’ve really forgotten how to make a classical argument, like an Aristotle kind of an argument. You know, you might call this, uh, rhetoric, a healthy debate.
I mean, Matt, you probably noticed this, right? Like, how much healthy debate do you see out there?
[00:13:42] Matt Ragland: Yeah, not near, not near as much as I think we would all prefer for having, like, mindful, like, good faith arguments about things that matter to us. But I really like this. This is even just a different positioning as saying, like, Hey, how do I, like, list all the benefits and features?
Or how do I create a narrative? Like there’s, uh, that’s how I’ve thought about it a lot. I mean, we, we see different, uh, we see different like marketing frameworks out there, but I think it’s interesting and something that I was, I was excited to talk with you about when I saw you present it to me this way.
I was like, Oh, making an argument. Cause I wouldn’t think about like, Hey, how would I argue with someone? And I know like you’re presenting it in a slightly different way than that. But I, I just want to say like also big picture, the way that you’re presenting that To this, to me, to us, I, I find to be pretty, a pretty interesting, uh, take on it.
Thank you. Please continue.
[00:14:36] Billy Broas: This is needed. Thank you. I think this is needed in the marketing world. I mean, the, the, the skillset that comes after this is copywriting, but even that’s downstream of this, but even most copywriters don’t even know what they’re doing. And I don’t mean like they’re not good at copywriting.
I mean, they don’t, they don’t know the discipline that they’re employing. They don’t realize that it’s argumentation that they’re doing. So I studied copywriting and said. Oh, okay. This is really isn’t about wordsmithing. Like they’re just making an argument here. Yeah. And so then that’s what we need to study because you have to know what you’re doing.
[00:15:02] Matt Ragland: Yeah. And another,
[00:15:03] Billy Broas: like, what, what are we doing? Are like, how you define what you’re doing changes. How you approach it. If we define marketing as hype, then naturally you ask the question, well, how do I better hype my course? If you define marketing, like a lot of people do as deception, you ask the question, how do I get better at deception?
But if so, the frame is very important. And if we frame it as an argument, then we ask the question, well, how do you get better at making an argument? And what I’m arguing for in this presentation is that that frame will bring you the most success.
[00:15:32] Matt Ragland: Yeah. And let’s, let’s keep, let’s keep pushing on that.
Cause yeah, even the note, the point that I was going to make about copywriting, and I know I’ve found myself falling into this sometimes is I just like think about more emulating copywriting that I’ve seen, or like seeing some of those like tips of like, well, make sure that you write to like, A middle, a middle school grade level, or make sure that you have like quick, clear, like concise messaging.
And you know, some of those things are still helpful to know, but if I’m not applying, like say that that’s more writing style, if I’m not applying a lot of people now, I think approach copywriting from a stylistic perspective, like, Oh, it’s supposed to look this way instead of approaching, especially something like sales copy from.
An argument from a presentation perspective of here’s what I want to like, not deceive you about, but let me like show you kind of like having an on screen negotiation about how this is going to like solve a problem for you.
[00:16:29] Billy Broas: Right. And that’s what I like copywriting was too. So break up your paragraphs, right.
At a seventh grade level, right. Use subheads, use vivid language. And all that stuff is important. But there’s a lot of sales letters out there that check all those boxes, but they make a really lame argument.
[00:16:46] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Or you just get to the end of it and you’re like, what, what, what’s the point or what, what am I supposed to do here?
Like it’s good writing, but I’m not sure, like the direction that I’m supposed to take or what you want me to do. Or why I should do it.
[00:16:57] Billy Broas: Yeah. And again, it comes back to, to leverage. So if you get the argument, right, then those other things don’t matter so much. Like you might not have the best sub heads, but because you’re making a really good argument, it doesn’t really matter.
And that, and that was what I saw was that I saw like what a lot of people would say stylistically were, was not very good copy on these sales pages, but because the person. Writing it, I had a very compelling argument, whether they knew what they were doing or not, it still made a lot of sales. So I was like, okay, there’s something that’s really important here.
Let’s zero in on that. So let me give you my definition of argument and, uh, and apologies. If there’s like any rhetoric majors in the audience right now, uh, you’re probably going to pick this apart. This is just for pragmatic purposes. I need to simplify things a bit. We’re doing marketing here. So it’s probably not going to please any rhetoric.
Rhetoric professors, but it will get the job done for marketing your course. And so the best way I can describe marketing for our purposes, or sorry, or an argument for our purposes is a series of claims backed by proof that lead to a logical conclusion. And so what you want to do is lead people. To the logical conclusion where the only logical conclusion is to buy your course.
That’s a writer downer you want to, in your marketing, you want to lead people to the only logical conclusion, which is to buy your course. And this is logic. I love logic. It kind of gets thrown under the bus and marketing people talk about, but usually it’s something like, well, you hear this phrase all the time.
People say. Well, customers buy an emotion and justify it with logic. That’s a different kind of logic than I’m talking about. That’s like a post purchase rationalization. That’s not what I’m talking about. You, you need to have this, this backbone to your marketing, this logical backbone where everything lines up and everything makes sense.
And then on top of that, just like a lawyer, think about a lawyer in a courtroom. They make a very logical argument to a jury or a judge. But then in order to make that argument, of course they use emotion. They bring in very emotional stories often. They also bring in data, right? Exhibit A, Exhibit B, they bring in physical evidence, right?
So it’s that logical argument, uh, with a totality of evidence that sways the jury, or in this case, sways your customer. And yes, that can include emotion. But I would encourage you, I have found that it’s most effective, not to start with the emotional thing, but to start with this, Logical argument. Does that make sense, Matt?
[00:19:10] Matt Ragland: Yeah, it makes a lot of, it makes a lot of sense to me. I’m excited to see some of the examples in way this like plays out because I’m, I’m thinking of some ways that I could do this with like a creator or even things like, you know, we’ve talked about this some, some, even with course launches is how can you, you know, Build something that will continue to like make arguments and make sales for you.
Even when you’ve kind of left it, you know, maybe not are focusing on it quite as much. And so I’m even thinking about this and approaching it from the perspective of like, Hey, how can I improve the productivity courses that are still out there that like could probably sell a little bit better if I made better arguments for them instead of like, just saying like, Hey, here’s, here’s what they are.
[00:19:50] Billy Broas: Yes. Yes, exactly. Yes. Making better arguments. Yeah, and I’ll show you some examples and we’ll, we’ll walk through one of my examples, uh, and we’ll dig into that. Let me first just bust some myths about arguments. So it’s a myth that it’s an emotional confrontation. It’s not true at all. Like there is, there is emotion involved, but it’s, it’s win win.
You have the other person’s, person’s best interest in mind. You don’t want to just like, Beat someone into an oblivion in an argument like that is not winning an argument. That’s losing an argument. It’s also related to that. It’s not self centered. You are trying to help the other person. Now, often with arguments, even in society or about politics or whatever, often we agree upon the end outcome, right?
We want peace and happiness and to take care of our kids and everything. We just disagree on how we get there, right? And that’s what you’re arguing for is how you get there. Just like for you, you have an outcome that you want for your customer and that they also want that you agree upon. You’re arguing for your way of achieving that outcome because they have a lot of other ways that they can achieve that outcome.
Uh, and arguments are bad. Arguments are not bad. That’s a myth. Arguments are actually healthy. And if you do this, and this is why I think in general as a society, we could benefit by getting better argumentation because it helps you develop your critical thinking. Thinking skills or reasoning abilities and arrive at win win outcomes.
These days, we don’t really argue. We make accusations, unfortunately.
[00:21:03] Matt Ragland: Yeah. I like that point about us both having like the same outcome, the thing that we, we want to achieve. Like I even think, I think about this from the perspective of, Hey, creator. Like if I’m trying to get somebody to join, HeyCreator, or get one of the courses that, that we create, then like, Hey, the outcome of this is like, I want your, I want your creator business to be awesome.
I want it to be the best business that you can have based on what you, the kind of life that you want to build. And I would think that everyone that I’m talking to, that I want to join HeyCreator, they want that too. Like the outcome is the same. So how can I make an argument that the path that I’m presenting in HeyCreator is the best way to achieve that business growth, to like build the kind of life and work that they are excited to do every day?
[00:21:47] Billy Broas: Yes. And that, you know, The phrase that pops into my mind is mutual understanding. And that part is so key. So in that, in that example, you and your prospect or the HeyCreator community need to have that mutual understanding of what that end outcome is. And it’s not, assumptions are very dangerous in marketing.
It’s not assumed you need to stay at this framework. I would say when going through that framework, it’s not just answers on a worksheet. Like you’re, it’s supposed to be words that are on the page. So you need to state that. And then that person, your prospect, they might disagree with you. Right. And frankly, you should have some people who disagree with you.
And they’re like, actually, Matt, that’s not really the outcome I’m looking for. I see what you’re doing. That’s just, that’s just not for me. And then maybe you can even, in that case, recommend somebody else to help them achieve that outcome that is theirs.
[00:22:29] Matt Ragland: Yeah. And there could be like, this kind of goes back to like a lot of what we talk about initially, like have even making an argument, I would say like for the niche that you have, like, even when you make that argument, even if the product, the service, or even like the topic in general, isn’t for someone, when you plant your flag and make the argument.
Even if it’s not for that particular person that’s looking at your stuff or you’re talking to at that time, then at some point down the road, they may be like, Oh, you want to do that? Matt does that. He told me all about it. He, he was really excited and passionate about it. Wasn’t for me, but it sounds like it could be for you.
And they know that because we’ve had this like, uh, mutual understanding argument in the past.
[00:23:10] Billy Broas: Yes. So yeah, the key is always communication, clear communication, isn’t it? It’s an old idea, but it’s still very true today. So let’s get into, so we’re going to go back to basics here. I mean, if we, so then if we define, so hopefully you buy my argument that marketing is an argument and, and give it a shot and you will see the results.
And that that is the correct frame to take into marketing and it underpins your course launch. Well, then we need to ask that question. How do we get better at making an argument? And we got to go back to basics here. And, uh, forgive me if this gives you flashbacks of high school or studying for your SATs or something, but we got to start here.
So let’s create a basic argument and this will warm up our argumentation muscles. And a great way to do this is to use something that’s a funny sounding word. It’s called a syllogism. And you’ve probably seen this before. Let me know in the chat. Type in yes if you’ve seen something like this before. And so we’re going to give a couple claims.
Uh, you might hear these called premises. I like to call them claims. And then, and this is essentially, it’s deductive reasoning. And this is the same core structure that you’re going to need to use in your marketing and for your course launch. So participate in this. We’ll do it together. So if I give you this first claim, all dogs are animals.
And then the second claim, Buddy is a dog. Then we have a conclusion, so type it into the chat, therefore, let me go to the chat. What is our conclusion from these two claims? I’m like unnecessarily nervous. Right? One
[00:24:31] Matt Ragland: of
[00:24:32] Billy Broas: those things, man, we don’t, we don’t get a lot of practice with this. There we go. Yeah.
Therefore, buddy is an animal, right? Okay. And so let me do another, let me do another one. We have a, another practice one and I’ll go deeper into this. Okay. So one more here. This syllogism. Claim 1. Rainy days are wet. Claim 2. Today is a rainy day. Therefore Let’s go to the chat. Who’s got it? Today is wet.
Deductive reasoning. Already good at arguments. Look at us. Look at us. Yeah, we’re crushing it. We’re crushing it. But this is that It seemed silly to me when I realized this. I was like, why are we posting all this stuff to social media? When we don’t even have an argument. So like you have, you want to be able to boil it down to something this simple before you expand upon it.
Like this, like these, how many words are on the page right now in this syllogism? Not very many, but this can turn into like a 50, 000 word marketing campaign just from this core argument. And the reason it can expand into that is because of the proof that you provide to back up these arguments. Now it sounds a little silly with these examples.
Because I used ones that are more self evident. Like when I say rainy days are wet, not a lot of people argue with that, right? Like I don’t really have to provide a proof for that. But could you argue that? Like, might I have to back up that claim? I don’t know, you might say, well, it’s a very humid day here, outside, it’s not raining, but it’s humid, so, is today wet?
Right, so you might have to have an argument about, a discussion about, Well, like how do you define what wet means, right? So like that, that type of proof that you bring into it, again, it’s silly in these examples, but when you bring it into your marketing, that’s where your marketing material comes from.
Like your marketing material is proof to back up these claims that you’re making. Does that make sense, Matt?
[00:26:13] Matt Ragland: Yeah, it makes sense to me. Uh, I can, I can kind of see or guess where you’re going with it. I just thought like, you could start to make it more complicated or think about ways that people could argue be like, well, you know, I didn’t go outside today.
It’s kind of like a Schrödinger’s cat type of like, uh, argument around like, well, you know, I, It says it’s rainy, but I’m not going outside. So is it really, is it really that wet? It’s not wet to me or like, I have a really big umbrella. It doesn’t really bother me. Who cares?
[00:26:38] Billy Broas: Define today. Is it today here in San Diego?
Is it today in Australia? So this, this, uh, is this an aha for people? So I know it’s again, silly with these examples, but it. When it comes to something like marketing your product, this is where you do actually have to prove these things. And that is what marketing is. It’s like all those words that you see on these sales pages and emails and in your webinars, it is proof primarily to back up these claims that you’re making.
And I’ll show you some
[00:27:01] Matt Ragland: examples.
[00:27:01] Billy Broas: Yeah. And
[00:27:02] Matt Ragland: I think there are a lot of times where we kind of, we talk more about like what the course is instead of. showing the proof of what it does and especially like what it can do. This is why testimonials are so powerful because they’re, they’re proof of your argument.
But if that, even that’s not, I have found enough by itself. I mean, it does really help. They’re incredibly powerful, but you still have to like connect the testimonial proof, like them arguing on your behalf with. The proof on the page is like, Hey, this is, this is what, what it is,
[00:27:34] Billy Broas: right? And we often think about testimonials as testimonials that our product works or our product is good, but a big mistake people make, and please everyone pay attention.
This is always made in the course world is that people jump in through their product. In this case, their course way too early. What we found in doing course launches, and I’ll show you the graphic at the end that really explains this. You make a lot more sales. When you first make your argument, when you first make your argument for your way of doing things and then your course, your product is just a vehicle to implement that way of doing things.
So like if they accept your, your argument, then they’re going to be open to your course. But if you just lead with your course and you’re like, Hey, buy now, here are the benefits without making this argument, it’s not going to do very well.
[00:28:15] Matt Ragland: Yeah, even, I mean, even that is kind of is a light bulb moment for me, like thinking about it in that way of how you make the argument and then the course is the vehicle to achieve that outcome, but you’ve already seeded everything.
the argument and they’re bought into it.
[00:28:33] Billy Broas: Yes. And if you study great copywriters and great copywriting, you’ll, you’ll see that this is what they are doing. They are first making the argument. And then they say, Hey, if, if we’re on the same page now, you can do this on your own, or you can buy our product that makes it easy.
And we provide checklists and worksheets and support and blah, blah, blah. Um, but you don’t want to leave it with that. So let me get into some marketing material now. And yeah, awesome. I see Lisa says, yes, this is a very different way of looking at things. Awesome. That’s what I want to see. Yeah.
Perspective, you get the biggest ROI from perspective shifts because that influences everything that comes after that. So Lisa, glad to hear that. And yeah, I don’t know anyone else who really talks about marketing this way. So I hope this is helping you. Okay. So here’s an example coming up. So speaking of like great copywriters, there’s, um, there’s a There’s a very famous copywriter.
His name is Gary Bencivenga. And, uh, and he retired from copywriting to launch an olive oil company. And I feel bad for all of his competitors because they’re going up against this world class copywriter. And so here’s a piece of his marketing material for this. It’s, it’s a, it’s a monthly, it’s an olive oil of the month club.
It’s like high end olive oil. You pay a subscription for it. Uh, we actually had, I don’t know if they were in your cohort, uh, Matt, that you did with us, but, but one of our participants in our cohort signed me up for this is very good olive oil, but the marketing is phenomenal. And so you, you look at this, this is some of the marketing materials.
So I’m going to read this headline for you. Eight reasons why. Our Harvest Fresh Extra Virgin Olive Oils are more flavorful and healthful than anything you’ll find in stores. So me having just spoken about argumentation mad and give me a yes in the chat. Do you see that this is framed as an argument?
[00:30:09] Matt Ragland: Yeah. I mean, just, just from the start of it is like eight reasons why like there are going to be like, Hey, this is, this is better. I’m going to like, if you, you think that it’s not better, I’m going to tell you why.
[00:30:19] Billy Broas: Exactly. It’s, it’s not like, Hey, it’s so awesome. Our olive oil tastes so good. Bye. Because whatever it’s like, no, he’s, he’s making a case here.
And so, so let, let’s read a few of these. So what reason one, so this is his argument. One, our, our, all our olive oils are shipped directly from new harvest at the peak of freshness, flavor, and nutritional potency. In contrast, store bought olive oils sit on the shelf for months, even years, growing flat, dull, stale.
And even rancid. So you read that and you’re like, okay, like starting to convince me here. Reason number two, we race our oils to America by jet. Never via the standard industry practice of slow container ships. Number three to speed up shipping. We get a wheels up customs clearance from the U S customs office in advance.
Number four pampered, like perishable. You’re like, by this point, you know, there’s four more. Matt, I’ll, I’ll give you the, the link to the full document. Okay. Everyone can read it. Yeah, I’ll share it. Yeah, it’s great. It’s really great. Um, but Matt and everyone else gimme a yes if gimme a yes, if you are, if you are at least 1% more likely to try this olive oil after reading this copy that I just read.
[00:31:24] Matt Ragland: Yeah, I, I definitely, I definitely am. And I wouldn’t have even thought going into this, and this is interesting to consider that I would even be interested in an olive oil of the month subscription, uh, that’s just not something that would have. But when I see this, I’m like, Oh, what are some other reasons that like.
I’ve been dealing with, uh, olive oil that isn’t as healthy or isn’t as flavorful.
[00:31:49] Billy Broas: Yeah. And has anyone in the chat, have you been in this position where you’re having an argument with someone and it might be one of those more heated arguments, and maybe it’s about like a political topic, because there’s plenty of those now.
It could be anything, but where you’re more knowledgeable on the topic, just because you’ve studied it than the other person, and because the other person just doesn’t know as much about it, you’re finding a hard time making your argument. Matt, have you been in that position? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right.
And so that’s why I also say, yeah, marketing is an argument, but it’s also education because in that situation you can make your best argument if you both have equal knowledge of the topic. So what you want, what you also see, so it’s kind of a sequence is like education and then argument. So, and you see that too, like I didn’t know that most store bought olive oil sit on the shelves for months.
I didn’t know that they’re shipped via slow container ships. So this is what we mean when we, you often hear the phrase education based marketing. So it’s education. Which allows you to make the best argument. Uh, let’s move on to another one here. So I just saw this one recently, actually the other day that this hit my inbox.
Uh, does anyone know Dan Sullivan? And he’s got a business call, strategic coach, Matt. I don’t know if you’re into, into Dan. He’s got a bunch of books out there.
[00:32:55] Matt Ragland: Yeah, I’ve, I think I’ve read a couple of his books. I’ve definitely heard of him.
[00:32:58] Billy Broas: Yeah. So I saw this hit my inbox and so read this. So he works with entrepreneurs.
So the great meltdown. In my latest short book, The Great Meltdown, I describe how the entire world is already experiencing a worldwide meltdown in which bad news of high energy costs, or sorry, high cost of money, energy, labor, and transport melt, as he calls it, for others can be good news for your entrepreneurial future over the next 30 years.
So do you, do you sense, I mean, this is just the beginning of a long content piece, but do you sense where this argument is going?
[00:33:25] Matt Ragland: He’s going to argue that, yeah, all the, all these things that seem like, uh, bad, bad things are presenting an opportunity. Exactly.
[00:33:35] Billy Broas: Yeah. It was similar to the argument we’ve heard a lot during COVID where in times of chaos and uncertainty, there’s a real advantage for entrepreneurs, especially smaller ones, because everything’s being disrupted, right?
Like, and, and, and he, he has a coaching program. He helps entrepreneurs. So this will no doubt lead to an offer for his coaching program. But you are far more likely to invest in his coaching program if you buy into his argument first.
[00:33:56] Matt Ragland: Right. Yeah. You’re just seeding that in. So like you’re saying, if I, if I reach out to Dan about coaching or I see something about an opportunity to work with him, I’m much more likely to take him up on that or take the next steps because I’ve already bought into the argument that a great meltdown is happening.
[00:34:12] Billy Broas: Totally. Yeah. And, and, you know, and he’s a good guy. I think he’s a man of integrity. I know that he believes this. And so that’s a key thing here. Like you don’t want to go into this with cynicism, which I know is easier said than done with marketing because there’s so many liars out there, but, you know, but you have a choice in how you do it.
That’s for sure. And so like really find a better way of doing things and, and making an honest argument for it. That’s a big recommendation. Uh, okay. Let me give you one more here and then we’ll dive into it. We’ll go a little bit deeper into one I did for my own beer brewing course. So this is from, uh, if you know, Harry, Uh, from Harry’s marketing examples.
Yeah, I’m familiar with Harry.
[00:34:45] Matt Ragland: Yeah.
[00:34:46] Billy Broas: Yeah. So I clipped this from one of his emails and he can even say here. So this is him writing. He’s saying you’re not selling, you’re constructing an argument. So him and I definitely see eye to eye on this. And then he used, this is, he, he marked up this example from the Guardian newspaper.
There’s a good reason not to support the Guardian. And so it kind of a contrarian. Way of looking at it. Yeah. But, but then you read it. It’s like, well, we have no billionaire owner controlling what we do. Independent journalism is vital. Right? So similar to the olive oil one, it’s just a list of reasons.
Yeah,
[00:35:15] Matt Ragland: I like, I like this a lot. I was even, I saw like these markup highlights. This is a really good, this is a really good example. I do like that. I wish I could think of, maybe I can’t think of some way to like the, you’ve read 29 articles in the last year, right at the top, like you’re, you’re, you’re You’re already saying in that, um, Hey, this already matters to you.
Look how many articles you’ve read. So I’m like, it’s putting me in a position where I’ve started to agree with the argument even before it started.
[00:35:43] Billy Broas: Right. And it’s that mutual understanding, right? It’s like, Hey, I know that you’re reading this. You know that you’re reading this. It’s, it’s a, it’s a foundation for us to build upon.
Uh, so let’s go, I’m aware of our time here. So let me go through an example from my online course to really make this clear. So this was a beer tasting course that I had. And so what I discovered again, like do this, honestly, find a better way of doing things. What happened was I was big into homebrewing and then there’s this thing called professional beer judging.
You don’t, you don’t get paid, uh, you might say you get paid in beer, which is more valuable than money. And so I judge homebrewing competitions. I do about once a year now. And what I discovered was that my homebrewing really improved when I, after I passed my beer judge exam, because it just makes sense.
That’s kind of a logical statement there that the better you can taste your beer, the better you can brew it. Brew beer. And so I was selling these home brewing courses and before I was selling like, just kind of like one on one intro to home brewing courses, but then I wasn’t doing an argument, but then I came out with an argument and I said, look, I discovered that the best way to brew better beer is to become a better beer taster.
So do you see the argument there?
[00:36:44] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
[00:36:46] Billy Broas: And if I want to put this in this syllogism form, it might look like this, where the same one is when you can critically evaluate your beer, you can improve it. Same to becoming a better beer taster allows you to critically evaluate your beer. The conclusion being becoming a better beer taster is the best way to improve your beer.
Now that’s that core argument, but of course I need to prove this, right? Like I need to prove all of these claims and there’s going to be other claims that pop up as I’m making this argument. So let’s walk through that. Let’s prove this first claim. When you can critically evaluate your beer, you improve it.
So again, story to a lot of people, breach, a lot of experts preach. We’ll just tell stories in your marketing, but they don’t frame it the way that I’m framing it here, where the story is meant to prove your point, just like that lawyer in the courtroom. So I gave a story to prove this point that when you can.
Evaluate your beer, you improve it. And it’s the story of, I went to a home brew club meeting when I was very new and there was this experienced guy there and I wanted feedback. So he tasted my beer and it was amazing. Like he takes a sip of my beer and he’s like, Oh, that’s good. Barry, are you using? And then he named this very specific strain of yeast.
And I was like, that’s incredible. How did the guy just taste the beer and recognize the yeast I was using? Uh, it’s actually not that hard once you practice this, but he said, I said, Oh, yeah, like that’s actually exactly the yeast that I used. And he goes, you know, I’ve used that before. It’s not my favorite.
I used the strain of yeast that he recommended way better beer. So that’s not the only proof point that I provided, but do you see how I did what all the experts tell you to do, which is tell a story, but it was a story that had a point to it and how it advanced my case. Give me a yes in the chat. If that makes sense.
[00:38:17] Matt Ragland: Yeah, I really, I really liked that. I know that’s something I could do better because it’s almost like the copywriting example earlier is like, I, you know, copywriting is a As a stylistic choice rather than like driving to a particular like outcome or argument and then the stories were are often the same thing the same kind of issue with testimonials also it’s like hey, I’m just going to tell a story instead of selecting and building a story that will support the argument that I’m making.
[00:38:47] Billy Broas: Yeah, you nailed it. That’s what you want to do is first identify what your argument is and then find stories that support that argument. So then this, this turns into your content piece, you know, so everyone like it gives you these email templates for launches and everything, but with, but without, I hope you’re seeing that without this argumentation piece, they’re just not very useful.
And so I do get to the marketing content and you can see it right here. So this might be an email that I send and so the, the, the proof that I’m using in this case, a story becomes the content piece. And this can be an email. This can be a podcast episode, video, whatever, but you can see the subject line, the big aha, my first homebrew club meeting.
And then I just included an intro sentence. And then I did a summary. So I’ll never forget my first homebrew club meeting. I brought a beer in hopes of getting feedback. And then that story that I just walked you through. And CTA at the end. And if my course is open at this point, then I might, it might be a CTA call to action to buy the course.
Or if it’s earlier on in the launch, it might be something like reply and tell me if you’ve ever gone through this experience. There’s a lot of different CTAs you can use, but the point is. The story advances the argument and that’s what the content piece, that’s the job of your content pieces.
[00:39:52] Matt Ragland: Yeah. I think you used this term earlier that I like this, that this is a writer downer right here.
The story advances the argument that you’re making. Yeah, definitely a writer downer. A writer downer. I like that.
[00:40:03] Billy Broas: Uh, I’m going to share the visual in just a sec of a course launch looked at through this lens, but first I want to ask, can you imagine if I’m making this argument to you, let’s say you’re a beer brewer, What objections?
Might you have to, this argument that I’m making, so let, let’s say that you’re like, okay, well, I kind of buy that ability that if I improve my beer tasting palate, I improve my beer. Mm-Hmm. . But type it in the chat, or Matt, if any come to mind.
[00:40:25] Matt Ragland: Yeah. But I might, the first thing that comes to mind is like, but aren’t other things more important than being a better, being, a better taster, or like, does.
Like this really matter if I’m just trying to, if I am just a home brewer brewing for myself and do I want to, like, does it really matter if I’m already, if I’m already content? And maybe that kind of gets into like, is the desire there, but, um, maybe my, my first thought would be like, okay, I, I, I’m starting to buy your argument, but I am not convinced yet that it working on my taste palette is.
The most important thing that I could do if I’m a home brewer.
[00:41:04] Billy Broas: Right. And I love that point that you brought up because there, there are a lot of brewers who have just kind of like, I was obviously very into it and a lot of people are, but there’s also a lot of people where it’s like maybe a once every six months kind of a thing and they’re not rebrewing batches.
So this is why, again, this is really important. I’m glad he brought it up. You really need to qualify your arguments and you, and you might need to make a sacrifice here and say, look, this isn’t for everyone. And if you’re brewing only every six months, This doesn’t apply to you. So you might have to limit your audience.
And that was a mistake I made was that I was trying to get people more into home brewing than they already were. And they just didn’t care. I wish I could go back and do it again. There were plenty of people, thousands, and there’s millions of homebrewers worldwide, and there’s plenty that Or like brewing nuts.
Like I was, I should have only spoken to them. I tried to reach everyone and then dilute them out message.
[00:41:51] Matt Ragland: Yeah. And I really like these sections in sales pages specifically or sales emails, the, like, this is for you. This isn’t for you. If section. Um, when I see that as I I’m always like, ah, that, that may, that makes a lot of sense.
[00:42:05] Billy Broas: Totally. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So those, those are all arguments that I would, I would. So the point of this is you want to like you identify those claims and argument that you need to make but when you in doing that there’s going to be objections, and you need to further make an argument to rebut those objections.
So for example, I would have to in your example Matt, talk about some of those other things that they could do to improve their beer and show why they’re not as impactful as tasting. Yeah. And that would be more content pieces. So now you see why you see these long form sales pages. It’s not because they’re supposed to be like, that’s just what works.
I mean, it is, but it’s because it takes a lot of copy to make all these arguments. And so the best copywriters, they know that. And that’s why those sales letters are so long. A lot of people make them long and just fill them with fluff, not knowing what they’re doing. And they’re just like, well, I see that they’re really long.
So I got to make it really long. Yeah.
[00:42:51] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Robbie had a good like argument back. It was like, won’t, won’t this increase my cost in supplies? Will this increase my supply cost? So like, am I just going to be spending more money? And is that going to be as, is that, does that matter as much?
[00:43:05] Billy Broas: Yeah, I got, I got that objection.
The one you said, Matt, a big one I would get was well. Aren’t your taste buds kind of locked in from birth? Is it really possible to improve how well you taste things? And that was a big one I had to address. Turns out that’s not true. You can improve your palate, right? Again, this is more copy. This is more emails, more slides in the presentation.
Um, so you need to make your full argument because if you don’t do that, if they have these objections, they’re unlikely to invest in my course.
[00:43:29] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Another thing that has come up again and again, and you just made the point. Again, is like that value of communication and feedback from your audience, from your readers, like to know that those are the arguments that they are making.
I mean, we’re all, we’re all in good faith here that we want to have better tasting beer. And you’re saying like the path to that is to improve your tasting palette and like the pushback, the arguments and the conversation helps you with your argument as well. Exactly.
[00:43:58] Billy Broas: Yes. It’s
[00:43:58] Matt Ragland: all about
[00:43:58] Billy Broas: communication. So, so I hope you’re seeing how this, this supports your course launch.
So, uh, I made this graphic. Thanks man. Because I. I hadn’t, this is the first time anyone’s seen this and this was really rewarding to make, because I think this sums up very well about where you see this core backbone of your argument and you see the course launch timeline on the bottom there. So typically courses are launched over time, whether it’s a week or whether it’s a month or more, and the content stems from your core argument.
And then after making that argument, that’s how you convert that prospect into a customer.
[00:44:27] Matt Ragland: I like it. Hey, Faye, Faye had a quick question that I think is applicable here of saying like, should I state what will happen if they don’t buy the course? Um, so that they’ll know like what will or won’t happen if they don’t get this fixed.
I, there’s a couple other things that she said, but like, Showing that like, if you don’t improve your tasting palette, then, then what? And do you really want that thing to happen?
[00:44:51] Billy Broas: Yeah. That’s part of the argument. Absolutely. If you do nothing, we call that in the five light bulbs world, this is represented by light bulb one, which represents your customer status quo, the problem that they’re facing.
And also, as we say, the, the negative consequences or negative ripple effects of not doing anything. And that’s what Faye’s speaking to. So yeah, that’s definitely going to be part of your argument. Okay, so let me give you some steps here as we wrap this up. Uh, so first, boil your launch, your marketing for your course down to that core argument.
Um, try to put it in that syllogism form. Determine those claims that you’re making and the proof points that you use to get those claims accepted. And make sure that, you know, as these objections to what you’re claiming pop up, That you, um, you know, that you whack those moles as well. That’s kind of what it’s like, it’s like a game of whack a mole.
Turn those proof points into content pieces. Like that story that you use to get that point across, turn that into your content piece. That’s what becomes your emails, your sales pages, your webinars. And then finally, finally, now you get to the point where most people who give us advice on launches start, which is only now do you distribute these content pieces across your chosen marketing channels and mediums.
Marketing channels like email, Facebook, Instagram, mediums like text, audio. I will say you don’t have to do it this way. Like you can do it the way most people say like this and get some results, but you will get better results this way. Because if you do it the other way, where you’re just talking about benefits, it’s not as unique.
Anyone can state those same benefits and it’s not as compelling as having a unique angle or argument too. So be that mad scientist who figured out a better way of doing things. You know, I think put yourself in the customer’s shoes. Don’t you want to buy from someone who Was that mad scientist and tried a whole bunch of different things in the lab and figure out a better way of doing things.
Like I know I do. Right. But then that person needs to make the argument, talk about those experiments that they did and why that this crazy thing they made in the lab works better. So, you know, golden rule of marketing market to others, how you want to be marketed to. And then, uh, and then if you want to go deeper, if this resonated, hopefully this was a perspective shift.
That’s what I like to do because that’s where we get the biggest ROI. Uh, I got this book coming out. I think Matt, you typed the link into the chat. Simple marketing goes deeper into this idea of argumentation for marketing. I recommend combining that with my messaging framework, which makes the concepts in that book really simple and practical.
I’ll eventually write a book on the five light bulbs, but right now just go to fivelightbulbs.com. You can see the whole framework right there. And we’d love to have you as a subscriber on my weekly marketing newsletter. Billy’s Monday Light Bulb. Thank you very much.
[00:47:16] Matt Ragland: Yeah. Billy, this was great. Uh, I learned, I learned a lot.
I’m going to think about how I can construct better arguments for, for my products, for my sales pages, for the offers that I had, just for, just for the content in general. Like that was definitely an unlock for me is like, how can I. Create content that supports the argument of like the core message of the argument that I’m making for the, for the things that we want to do.
