[00:00:00] Matt Ragland: HeyCreators. I want to tell you about the sponsor of today’s show and it is Riverside FM. Now I love using Riverside for the HeyCreator podcast, but we use it at HeyCreator for many other things, including client interviews and community calls. At times it is. It is the best tool that I have found for recording podcast episodes, either by myself here with Tim or with our guests.
[00:00:27] There are several reasons that we chose Riverside to be the tool of choice for the HeyCreator podcast, but let me give you a few of my favorites. The very first one is the ease of use and the quality of the audio. All I have to do is send a link to the guest and they can join. There’s no additional software for them to download or anything special for them to do.
[00:00:47] It is so easy. The other big thing that I love about Riverside is how it records all of the audio and video locally and individually per guest. What that means is if someone drops a connection, it doesn’t affect anyone else’s feed. It also means that if someone has some background noise going on or something that could affect other people on other recording platforms.
[00:01:10] Riverside isolates all of those tracks, which makes it really easy to clean up in post production. Another great feature that Riverside has come out with recently is their AI clip generator. This makes it so much faster and easier to get those short form vertical videos from the best moments of the Haker series.
[00:01:26] I highly recommend using Riverside FM for your podcast. And to get a special rate, all you have to do is go to riverside. fm and use the coupon code. HeyCreator. That’s one word. HeyCreator for 15 percent off any Riverside.
[00:01:40] HeyCreators in today’s episode, Tim and I interviewed Cody and Cole Hock and If you’re listening to HeyCreator, you probably haven’t heard of these two brothers before, because they’re not creators in the way that we normally talk about it, but they work as operators in the creator space together.
[00:02:03] They found it up north, which is a talent management firm. But what we really wanted to talk with them about was their company, Enjoy Basketball, which they founded YouTube. Kenny Beecham enjoy basketball is a unique creator business because it pulls on almost every lever available to creators. We’re talking about newsletters, podcasts, YouTube, merchandise, in person events, and you’ll love this.
[00:02:25] Even partnerships with major companies like ESPN, Nike, and the NBA. But what we started our conversation with was a unique tactic that most creators don’t think about, or are, let’s be honest, a little afraid of, but Cody and Cole said this was a major contributing factor to the success and to the business they’ve built today.
[00:02:53] Tim Forkin: Something, I think it was Cody that you said on a call, uh, one of our enjoy basketball team calls from a few months back, you said, cold emailing is my favorite thing to do. You said you never know who you could meet when you cold email someone. And. I have, it’s like right out of my brain since then. And I realized like, I don’t think like that.
[00:03:12] I don’t think of like, Oh my God, should I be spending hours DMing people, cold emailing people every day? I just want to talk about that because it’s a, it’s a mindset shift that has obviously like played into your guys success. And I want to know like what you think about just the constant outreach.
[00:03:28] Cody Hock: Sure. So, I mean, for me personally, I’ve been trying to cold email people for over a decade in my quote unquote working career. Um, And the reason why I continue to do it is because it’s paid off, you know, immensely for me. I, everything from like my first internship was through cold emailing. Um, my background is I’m a lawyer.
[00:03:48] And when I thought I was going to go down the path of practicing, In LA and entertainment, I met like 125 lawyers over the course of a few years, because I was like, I need to know everything that’s going on so that I can prepare myself to do that. Once I graduated from law school,
[00:04:04] Matt Ragland: who gave you kind of like the, the impetus or like the boost to do that?
[00:04:08] Is that just like, cause when most people think of cold emails, they like would break out in hives and they like, this is not something I’m going to do. So like where sounds like you’ve been doing this for a really long time. Like where did that kind of start? Um, it’s funny.
[00:04:20] Cody Hock: I think that You know, Cole and I are entrepreneurs, but like we were never, you’re like typical necessarily like, Oh, we’re trading baseball cards and lemonade stands.
[00:04:30] Like there were things here and there obviously when we were growing up. Um, but I think this was kind of my version of that, if that makes sense. Like this was where I was proactive and trying to hustle and meet people and connect, um, which is a little different from the quote unquote conventional wisdom that you hear from people growing up.
[00:04:48] Um, so I, I just felt it was. inherent. If I was gonna be successful in doing that, I needed to just know everything about the industry. I needed to know who the players were. I needed to keep up and, you know, read the news so that if I was presented with a situation or a problem, I could just act accordingly.
[00:05:05] Um, and then you fast forward to today. It’s funny, Cole and I spent a week in L. A. last week. Three or four of our meetings were from cold emails, and they were to very high level executives in the sports media world. And like, it was just a shot in the dark. And like, if we get it, we get it. If not, it’s all good.
[00:05:22] Like, we, there’s nothing to lose, um, by reaching out and, um, trying to connect with someone. And if you can, you know, provide value back to them, um, you know, it’s a no brainer. It’s a win win. And, and it you know, the age of zoom, it’s like, okay, you can get on a 15 minute zoom call. Like it’s not really going to kill you.
[00:05:40] You don’t have to go to the coffee shop.
[00:05:42] Matt Ragland: Yeah. It reminds me, one of the things that my parents told me when I was, uh, when I was in high school is that you don’t get to be the one that tells yourself no. So whether that is like cold outreach to something or applying to a school or asking a girl out that like, you don’t be like, Oh, she’s not going to go out with me.
[00:05:59] Or this person’s not going to take my calls. You don’t get to tell yourself no, it’s the other person’s job to tell you no, it’s your job to ask.
[00:06:06] Cole Hock: There’s nothing to lose. Like, there’s literally nothing to lose by sending a cold email, like similar to Cody. Like, sending cold emails literally changed the entire trajectory of, like, my early career.
[00:06:16] Before we even started Up North, I worked in the music industry, I didn’t know anybody. And so when I was coming out of college, or in college, like, I literally carved out probably two hours per day, just making a list of different executives and people I wanted to meet and just cold email. Um, and it worked.
[00:06:33] I mean, not everything’s going to hit, but that’s the game that you play. So
[00:06:37] Tim Forkin: Cole, you said it, nothing to lose. There’s literally nothing to lose. And The access that you get to people, if they respond, the butterfly effect of your network just, just goes like crazy. I’m sure enjoy basketball. You guys company that you run with Kenny Beecham.
[00:06:52] Tell me a little bit about how that started because I’m, I’m going to guess it started with a cold email.
[00:06:57] Cody Hock: Well, our relationship with Kenny did start from a cold email. Um, we emailed him prior, just prior to COVID and we were, we were seeing what he was doing on YouTube and we said, Hey, let’s We want to get into the basketball space.
[00:07:08] He was the perfect creator. Um, we met Kenny over zoom and started working together, uh, in early 2020. And then fast forward to today where we manage him and we started a business with him. Um, so there’s a lot of moving pieces there, but, um, Yeah, we, we launched a brand with him, uh, two years ago called enjoy basketball.
[00:07:29] It’s a media and lifestyle brand. And for him, the whole idea was creating something bigger than just himself as a personality. He could be a personality driven. And be a brand that owned IP and created products and built community on top of everything he was doing on the content side.
[00:07:48] Tim Forkin: So for the audience in the past, I was working on short form video for enjoy basketball, helping grow the tech tax side of it.
[00:07:54] And I know that’s only like one part of it. First of all, super cool. Like just the idea of partnering with a creator. I don’t think many creators think of like, Hey, I can go find someone to help me accomplish this thing or run this thing that’s bigger than myself that they probably want something bigger than themselves.
[00:08:11] But the idea of working with someone else to make it happen. But tell me this, like, at what point should a creator Partner with an operator. Like, is there, is there like a certain threshold or did they just have to have a certain trait? Or where do you see like your place as an operator in the partnership with a growing creator?
[00:08:31] Cole Hock: I think it’s like situation dependent in terms of exactly what you’re trying to achieve in the business itself. You see a ton of creators now that are more in like sort of the DIY space. They can kind of run their own shop. They’re artists or creatives. You know, create a Shopify and, you know, they’re selling their products through content or tick tock shop and those types of tools.
[00:08:50] Um, I think in the case of something like what we’re building, it’s super necessary because there’s so much nuance to like building a media company and a lot that goes into it that a lot of people don’t think about. So, um, yeah, I guess it really depends on what the creator’s looking for, but again, not every.
[00:09:13] Talent rep or manager agent is focused on being an operator and that’s fine. I mean, some people are just focused on transactional relationships or only focusing on sponsorships, endorsement deals, those kinds of things, you know, for Cody and I being entrepreneurial at heart is really what fueled that drive to like, want to start these businesses, want to partner with creators.
[00:09:36] Um, And then being the talent rep, it’s sort of this added advantage because we have this established relationship with our clients. There’s trust there. There’s long lasting relationships that we’ve been working with different creators for, you know, four or five plus years now. So you have that foundation and that relationship build.
[00:09:54] So, um, it just helps sort of accelerate that. The business when you partner with them,
[00:09:59] Matt Ragland: I want to go back to the cold email part for saying, cause that like my mind is still spinning on that. Uh, cause like I said, it is something that not too many creators would think of doing naturally, or they just get like worked up about it besides thinking, Oh, this person is going to say, no, that’s maybe an eliminating belief that needs to be eliminated instead.
[00:10:22] But what kind of goes into a cold email? for you guys, like from, it’s not like specific phrasing, but just how, how do you make it? How do you make it a win win or how do you drive it? How do you drive that value and make it interesting enough? Cause I think people will, besides telling themselves, it’s not going to work.
[00:10:39] They’re telling themselves the reason it’s not going to work is because I’m not going to, I’m not going to do it the right way. And so it’s just. I’m going to look, I’m going to look bad. Not only now this person will know who I am and that I can’t write cold emails.
[00:10:51] Cole Hock: Okay. Overall, less is more. That’s how I approach all cold emails.
[00:10:54] Less is more. Nobody’s trying to read, you know, four or five paragraphs of text. Um, I start with a really quick intro, uh, you know, one liner, here’s who I am. And then the next part, um, I try to sort of establish some somewhat credibility. you know, hey, we’re building this brand and we’ve achieved X, Y and Z in a matter of a year or two.
[00:11:14] Um, next is the ask, keep it straight to the point. What exactly are you looking for? I think, uh, sort of playing into, uh, you know, showing your admiration for the person that you’re trying to reach out to, or why you are looking to connect or how you appreciate something, whether it’s a business that they’re building a project they’ve worked on.
[00:11:33] Um, That’s kind of it. And then like sort of what is the ask? Hey, let me know if you’re available. Is it coffee? Is it a. 10, 15 minutes. Zoom, um, Cody, you know, if you have any other things that you put into cold emails,
[00:11:46] Cody Hock: yeah, I would say like maybe the order changes in terms of those points that you hit on, but relatively, I mean, you, you, you hit basically all the points I would say shorter is better.
[00:11:55] I think people overlook. Um, and overestimate the subject line. I don’t think it needs to be so complicated again, simpler. I think the better, um, you know, sometimes if you’re asking something more complicated, it comes off salesy. So I feel like people aren’t as inclined to maybe open it. So I would refrain from doing that and make it.
[00:12:16] Try to make it as simple as possible, but like, even to this day, we’ve sent thousands of cold emails, like Cole and I still go back and forth with each other on the semantics and, you know, the, the inner workings of, okay, what if we use this word or that word, or if we phrased it like this. Um, but yeah, I think trying to provide some sort of value prop compliment, but compliment in a unique way, um, make it personal if you can, um, try to have some tied it to that individual in some capacity.
[00:12:44] Cole Hock: I’m also going to add one more thing, and we can’t say who it is now, but, but just for the sake of this conversation. Conversation in this topic, Cody and I’ve been trying to connect with exec in the sports media space for two plus years. There’s some mutual connections. There’s some, you know, requests for intros that have been made.
[00:13:01] Nothing came to fruition. We decided screw it two weeks ago. We’re going to send a cold email and boom. We got the meeting. So like I just want that to to speak towards our point here of why cold emails Are so important and how there’s like truly nothing to lose
[00:13:16] Matt Ragland: One of our friends, uh, people that we work with through like, HeyCreator and Good People Digital, her name is Amanda Gitz, and she said that she, she cold DMs like one person a day that she wants to connect with.
[00:13:29] And she’s like, you wouldn’t believe the number of people that I’ve been able to connect with. Just because I’m like, I’m consistently like taking those swings. I’m, I’m stepping up to the plate and just going for it and, and making the ask. So I think it’s a valuable thing, whether it’s like partnerships or like people that you want to connect with, it could be, could be any number of things for like these more like, uh, digital creators who are in the pro that are in like the core space, that’s a lot of who like.
[00:13:55] A lot of our listeners, but it’s still something that like, there are definitely people out there that you want to connect with. And I think just following that, like simple framework, uh, can, could be like a huge win.
[00:14:05] Tim Forkin: It’s, it’s really funny that you say like the one DM a day and like DM specifically, not email.
[00:14:11] I’m pretty sure I DM Cody first. And it was like, Hey, like just, if you have any short form video needs or anything, like Big basketball guy here. Let’s see if we can make something happen. That’s like, I’m not going to lie. That might be the only cold DM I’ve sent to someone I wanted to work with.
[00:14:26] Matt Ragland: If you get a follow from someone that you’re interested in auto cold DM, like you have, I mean, it’s not even that cold at that point, like As fresh as possible, get in there.
[00:14:42] As a creator, one of the most important things I’ve learned is that it’s impossible to be on this journey alone. I needed other creators in my circle for accountability, for support, to learn from, and to grow with. And this is why we started the HeyCreator community. It’s a place to connect with like minded creators, to follow a proven roadmap of success, and get the support you need to build your creator business.
[00:15:03] For more information, just go to heycreator. com slash community.
[00:15:11] Tim Forkin: Let’s, let’s talk, enjoy basketball. Uh, we’ve mentioned Kenny prior, um, we mentioned like a few of the different like levers of the business, but I want to get like really specific. Let’s go back to like, first, like why Kenny you, you reached out to Kenny. What was it about him that like made him the perfect creator for enjoy basketball?
[00:15:30] And if you want to go like, what do you look for for creators in general? We can do that too. But I want to talk about like, enjoy basketball now specifically, like why Kenny
[00:15:37] Cody Hock: for Kenny in particular. Um, It’s like hard to say and it’s like weird to say but he sort of had the it factor that you could you sort of see and that was measured from a few things.
[00:15:47] He was extremely charismatic. Um, on video, um, you would read his comments and you would see the praise from his community, um, and his engagement just across a lot of his platforms was just extremely, extremely good. Um, and so there were some indicators there and, you know, when you, when we first spoke to him, you could just see he was ambitious and he wanted to, to do more.
[00:16:09] And go further, um, throughout our working relationship. There were times where even before we launched the business, where we would test things here and there. So, um, we did a merge drop that sold a ridiculous amount of money in the first few days. Check he could sell community. You know, we were, he was, you know, posting things and the engagement would just increase, increase.
[00:16:29] And this admiration for him, you would see, um, the viewership on the content side. Changed in a good way. He started talking more about MBA commentary, moving away from the MBA. We launched a podcast with him three years ago. It did extremely well. We had really big brand sponsors. And, you know, we shot 10 episodes and it was awesome.
[00:16:49] So like we had sort of these check boxes throughout the, you know, wasn’t just like, Oh, one day we’re going to think of doing this company and starting a brand and we hope it’s going to be successful. Like we had evidence of all the inner workings, whether it was content, community, or commerce. It hit all three.
[00:17:07] So it was like, why not start a brand around someone? You’re seeing these personality driven brands become very mainstream. And if we can utilize his persona and his distribution, we have a really good chance to scale something really large. Um, and so that was the impetus of. Why we decided to do it.
[00:17:24] Matt Ragland: I like how you’re thinking about this in terms of like the iterative, like checkpoints.
[00:17:28] Like you saw from what had already existed that this was someone that had not only had potential, but you were already seeing results from. And then I thought, I think it’s cool that you did like the 10 episodes before you get used to working together. It can be kind of a limited, uh, Limited series. Do you like to work with creators where you can do more of those, like focused projects initially, just to kind of see what, what it’s like to work together?
[00:17:52] Is that something you commonly do?
[00:17:54] Cole Hock: Sort of, sort of just honestly fall into place and happen along the way, but probably it’s a good idea to like test it. Like Cody said, test certain things, um, test new ideas and different projects before you take on, you know, actually creating a full on company and hiring people and putting those pieces together.
[00:18:14] Tim Forkin: All right. We’re at the point where there’s a meeting of the minds. Enjoy basketball is fully formed. What’s like the first thing, right? You guys do content, you did commerce, like what channel, like, was the first, like, enjoy basketball. Move. What was the first, like, all right, we need to go tackle this first.
[00:18:30] Cody Hock: It was a newsletter. That was the first, that was the first thing that we did in the content space. So we could not start with a podcast or video content starring Kenny. He was a creator for how’s the highlights in bleacher report. So he had a non compete. So we were, we had no choice if we were going to start this thing.
[00:18:49] We had absolutely no choice. Um, and so we chose newsletter because. Even to this day, and I don’t really care to say this, but like, there’s not many basketball centric newsletters out there. Um, and so, okay, there’s a white space there that we can attack. Um, we understood, you know, you know, subscribing to different newsletters over the years, like the power of owning your audience there, the power of, You basically more or less know who’s going to open, how many people are going to click through the data, um, is tangible and measurable fairly easily.
[00:19:21] And so what if we launched a newsletter first to give people, you know, exactly what they needed to know about the game of basketball, we’re already busy. Like we can’t keep up. It’s really difficult to like, you know, there’s games almost every night. There’s things happening. Like it’s just too chaotic, especially even if you live on the East coast, how are you going to follow the West coast games?
[00:19:39] Like there’s just a lot going on. And so. Kind of the perfect situation arose where we could start with a newsletter, um, and then build off from that. I think if we started with content first, we would never have put as much effort into building a newsletter and we probably wouldn’t have one today. And the newsletter is even like a great business in itself.
[00:19:57] We can sell sponsorship. We can talk directly to our fans and our community. We can, um, we haven’t really launched too many products, merch drop or. Something in the apparel, physical product space. Like that’s an easy email blast. So I think we’ve really utilized it to our benefit and it’s, I don’t think we would have a newsletter if we launched a podcast network first.
[00:20:15] Matt Ragland: That’s super interesting because like we, we have, you know, friends, we have clients that we’ve worked with in the past where maybe they’re like more. Video or audio specific. They’re on YouTube. They’re on podcasts and getting people into just getting the, the talent themselves to sign off on a newsletter is something that’s still like, feels kind of archaic, uh, to some folks or at some as like, Oh, well, you know, I like to talk, I like to interview.
[00:20:43] These are the things that I’m doing. I’m not like writing a newsletter. I don’t know what the differenti, What the differentiator is going to be. So it’s really, it’s really interesting to hear that you, I mean, I understand the non compete part, but it does sound like you, uh, stumbled into something that really was like the best first thing to do.
[00:21:00] Cody Hock: We’re not fighting with an algorithm. I don’t like to fight with the algorithm. Like I don’t like that game. Um, and I think creators also are starting to realize that more and more as it gets finicky and you just can’t stay as consistent. Maybe it’s. People have in the past. So it’s, it’s a nice tool to have an arsenal for sure.
[00:21:18] Matt Ragland: It’s like I can, I took like 10 months off of my YouTube channel last year and I had a really solid channel, like nearing a hundred thousand subscribers and just like between running, running this business with Tim and our, and Daryl and doing some other things like having kids and stuff. I, when I started posting to YouTube again, numbers were pretty good.
[00:21:38] Pretty, pretty small, but the times that I’ve taken any amount of significant time away from my newsletter, I send like that next email, warm it back up a little bit, and in no time, I’m back up to like 60 percent open rates. And that’s like thousands of very, very direct views, and they’re just like, Hey.
[00:21:55] Great to, great to see you again. I’m landing right in the inbox instead of hoping that they see a notification or like it comes across their notification screen, I think newsletters in general for entertainment, I mean, even like, I know Kenny’s not specifically an athlete, but in that kind of athlete entertainment where you guys work more, is that something that you feel is like turning into more of an understood asset or is it something like, I think it’s like something that’s, you know, It’s turning around, but it’s also something where it’s not very common either.
[00:22:25] Cole Hock: Yeah, it’s not, it’s not too common at all, and I think in the early days we had to Um, just educate Kenny on, you know, the value of, of having a newsletter and why it’s important. And I think as a creator, he understands more than anyone, um, sort of the, the fight versus the algorithm and how, um, sort of unreliable that can be at times.
[00:22:46] And so the value of owning all these emails and, um, you know, the, the early days of the company before we actually started it, uh, Kenny wanted to create Clothing brand. That was sort of the initial idea and enjoy basketball was a phrase that he used Throughout his content and just sort of always driving this positive messaging home of like, hey, everybody just chill out Let’s just enjoy the game for what it is sort of we came in with the idea to expand it into a media company as well as the lifestyle side.
[00:23:17] So, um, but, but showing him the power of the newsletter and even going back to the lifestyle side and how we’ve used our product drops to integrating those into the newsletter, um, getting right into people’s inboxes with these email blasts every time we do a drop, whether that’s through Shopify or. Just directly to our list.
[00:23:35] Um, that’s been super valuable too.
[00:23:37] Tim Forkin: Yeah. Let’s, let’s talk about the, the brand, the clothing brand for a second here. And more broadly, so the newsletter is the first lever, right? I’m guessing is the clothing brand, the second lever that you guys went to.
[00:23:47] Cole Hock: Yep. Shortly after. Yep.
[00:23:49] Tim Forkin: So you got newsletter, you got clothing brand, you have Kenny’s content, right?
[00:23:54] Um, eventually there’s short form and the partnerships, like, can you like run through. The different, like all of the different like streams or ways that enjoy basketball is like a business in a sense, because as a creator, I can think there’s initially like a feeling of like, Oh, I want to be everywhere. I want to be doing all the things I want to make money in all these different ways.
[00:24:15] I think. Obviously starting with the newsletter proved to be like the smartest play. Now I want to go like to the final version and obviously not final version, but the current version of enjoy basketball, like what are all the different ways in which revenue comes in from being a creator business?
[00:24:28] Cole Hock: Cool.
[00:24:29] Take lifestyle content. So sure. I can, I can touch on lifestyle for a second. So yeah, initial idea of coding brand turned it into a, uh, the larger media company, but, um, I think having this really bought in community of basketball fans has allowed us to. Focused more on like giving the community what it wants, getting direct feedback, um, on the products that we make.
[00:24:50] Um, we’ve been doing these limited drops since we started two years ago, and these are anywhere from, I don’t know, 500 to maybe a thousand units in terms of quantity of products, everything from tees, hoodies, hats, socks, shorts, et cetera. Um, we’ve also parlayed that into creating physical products. So last Christmas, we did a special Christmas drop where we actually made enjoy mini hoops.
[00:25:14] Um, probably I think around 500 units and they sold out very, very quickly. And, um, that sort of inspired us now looking ahead at the rest of this year. Like what, what’s the next iteration of that? Is it a card game that, you know, basketball fans can play? Is it some sort of product that you can use outside in the summertime on a court?
[00:25:34] Um, so those are, that’s where our heads are going as far as. You know, brainstorming for like the next iteration of the lifestyle brand beyond just clothes. And we will continue to do, um, more peril drops. Um, last year we did a collaboration with icy, like the slushy company. That was super fun. And people seem to love that.
[00:25:51] And we’re already working on the next, uh, collaboration with another brand for this summer. So excited for that.
[00:25:58] Cody Hock: And in terms of, uh, the content side of the business, more or less traditional media network, if you will, at the top. So our top of funnel is content. Initially it was like the chicken or the egg problem, cause we had Kenny, but then we needed to create our own content.
[00:26:10] So I think we placed a huge emphasis on content, um, which Tim, you were super valuable and had a hand in that, um, over the last, you know, 12 to 18 months. Um, and so we spent a lot of time thinking about, are we going to, um, Do this independently. Are we going to partner with someone on the content side to really elevate what we have going on?
[00:26:30] And we had, you know, a lot of different conversations with a lot of the big production companies and studios and, um, even some big sponsors about, you know, doing it in conjunction with them. Um, and eventually we landed on Omaha productions, which is Peyton Manning’s production company and ESPN to launch that.
[00:26:48] And so that launched, um, Less than 90 days ago, um, which has been incredible. We have a show on our network called numbers on the board. It’s almost at a hundred thousand subscribers on YouTube. We started from zero, um, a few months ago and you know, those are doing extremely well. We have another show that Kenny Beecham and podcasts that’s doing well on our network.
[00:27:09] So. Terms of the content, there’s like the podcast network. We have two shows, we have short form content going across all different platforms. We have the newsletter under there. Um, so we basically are hitting on, you know, video, audio, written content, all sort of combined into one with respect to all things, enjoy content.
[00:27:28] Tim Forkin: The Omaha productions deal is that feels like an unprecedented move for like an internet creator. I’m trying to think of there’s like an educational or like expert creator that we can think of. Um, Matt and I just recorded about, uh, MKBHD’s deal with Ridge as kind of like a product focused deal.
[00:27:45] Matt Ragland: Or like Tim Ferris and James clear signing, like the deal with authors equity last month, or like James doing the atomic, the atomic habits app, uh, the last couple of months.
[00:27:55] So there. But yeah, seeing, tell me, tell me more about, about Omaha and how that, how that came to be and what that, what that looks like, or however, however, you were going to finish asking your question, Tim.
[00:28:07] Tim Forkin: Yeah, I’m more so just like very admirable to see a creator jump out of like the kind of like traditional internet media world.
[00:28:15] And like, when you see that ESPN name and that Peyton Manning name attached to enjoy basketball, like, Yes, Matt. First, like, how did it come about? Um, but more so just like, what does that mean for creators? Like, can someone start right now and eventually get to a level where they’re on a, uh, a network as big as ESPN?
[00:28:30] Cody Hock: Yeah. So, I mean, it kind of happened organically, um, back to cold emails and just meeting people and connections to tie it all, put a through line through this whole podcast, we’ve just known a bunch of people in the industry and in terms of conversations, we had met their team, um, like about a year ago.
[00:28:49] Just had some preliminary conversations, talk to, you know, others in the space. And then we ended up sitting down with them, um, in Vegas at summer league at NBA summer league. And so that was really interesting just to have that first sort of initial conversation, and then it took a few months to really like flesh out what exactly it would look like.
[00:29:08] Um, and it’s really centered around this podcast. Um, called numbers on the board and then there are some really, really fun things, um, that we’re going to do an announcement. I can’t say what it is, but it’s, um, it’s a really, really big deal. We’re really excited about it. Um, and then, you know, they do the manning cast.
[00:29:24] So you can sort of picture what is going to happen, hopefully in the basketball states, basketball state with us. Um, they do a lot in branded, um, in terms of branding content. So there’s a lot of opportunities there. Um, the whole idea was, Hey, we can do this independently. However, can we get to where we want to go faster with a partner?
[00:29:44] And that was the exact reasoning for, for doing the deal. I think the ability for Omaha to scale and grow what they’ve been able to do over the, you know, they’ve only been around for three or four years, huge potential, how to grow a business from scratch with a personality, That’s sort of at the helm.
[00:30:01] The ESPN, you know, relationship was a no brainer. I mean, like, they are the worldwide leader for a reason. And so, you know, pairing someone from the digital space, um, you know, with, you know, someone who’s been dominant, not only on linear, but digital as well, you know, were huge advantages for us. And so, you know, I think For us at the end of the day, it was like, who can help us, you know, accelerate to where we want to go as fast as possible and just continue to learn from and be a sponge and try to maximize everything that we can out of a partnership.
[00:30:32] Tim Forkin: Tell me how a creator could start today. And then what would it take for them to get to a point where you’re appealing to a big brand in the sports world to be ESPN? Um, maybe like there’s bigger, the bigger players and other networks, but what would it take, like you guys made it to a point where ESPN is like, okay, we need Kenny, we need enjoy basketball to, to expand our basketball division.
[00:30:57] What would it take for a creator who wanted to start making content today to get on these biggest stages?
[00:31:02] Cody Hock: It’s very dependent on the type of content. Like I’m sure you see in B2B. You know, some creators are so much more valuable with less of a following because of what they offer, what they’re discussing.
[00:31:13] Um, you know, I think sports and entertainment is, you definitely need that large following, tight knit community, being able to offer something different. Um, it’s, it’s difficult to, um, quantify in terms of sort of where you need to be. But I think as content continues to be more democratized, you’re able to have those conversations earlier.
[00:31:38] You have the ability to go viral and grow at a much, you know, more rapid rate than maybe even 10 years ago or 20 years ago. So I hope that can answer your question. It’s, it’s a tough, um, It’s tough to sort of figure out exactly where you need to be. It’s all really, it’s really context and situational dependent.
[00:31:54] Matt Ragland: What are some ways, I know we’ve talked about like identifying people who have the kind of talent that you would want to work with as, as an operator? Uh, what are some things that from a creator side, like if I was being reached out to by someone who wanted to work with me, what are some things that maybe like, I, as a, as a content creator could like questions that I could ask or ways that I could kind of like suss out if, uh, the person who wants to work with me, the operator manager is something that I should consider pursuing.
[00:32:28] Like, what are some common mistakes that people make or things they’re not thinking about in these conversations? Maybe on both ends.
[00:32:35] Cole Hock: I think maybe it comes down to like questioning, you know, their long term thinking and strategy. I think we live in a world where everybody wants things quickly. And, um, the reality is when you build a business, um, and we’re seeing it right now, like it’s truly a marathon and not a sprint and just sort of, uh, trying to pick their brain on, you know, how do they think about, you You know, what’s the 12 month road map?
[00:33:02] And then what’s the three year road map? Um, since we started, we knew exactly where we wanted to go and sort of the steps that we needed to take. And we’ve taken, um, a really strategic approach. I’m like, okay, great newsletter here. We’re going to build that. That’s block one. Next was content. We knew we are always going to do this content network.
[00:33:21] We were like counting down the days that we could start having conversations with, um, like Cody said, the production companies, uh, and media networks, because we, we knew that was what made sense for us. We knew that’s what we wanted. Um, and sort of just planned accordingly to, to get to that point. So long term strategy, I think is, is, is key.
[00:33:41] Cody Hock: It’s also hard today when you see a lot of people popping up with a new agency or a new management company. And like, I mean, we started a management company five and a half, almost six years ago. And we even felt like we were late back then. And then you fast forward to today and it’s like, we see, you know, a new business popping up and like, I don’t know what they’ve done.
[00:34:02] I don’t know who their clients are or what they’ve claimed to do. So I think like, obviously reputation, um, is a big factor. Um, I think like, Even talking to that person’s clients who they claim to have, um, can be another, you know, thing to, to figure out, um, testimonials, obviously. I think everyone like Cole said is really focused on a short term.
[00:34:24] Profits and not sort of long term objective. So figuring out if, if your goals align with theirs earlier, then, then later will be super helpful in the long run.
[00:34:33] Tim Forkin: How much of it is in person stuff? I feel like part of working with a creator or maybe meeting with Omaha productions in Vegas. Like, I feel like there has to be an in person part to like, really trusting your business, your creator business, or like, if you’re a manager, like trusting your time and energy.
[00:34:50] With a creator. Like how, how important is that for it?
[00:34:54] Cody Hock: I think it’s really important. Um, it’s a difference between having like a zoom meeting versus in person. Like I just think in person is always going to be a step ahead. You can really feel someone out and get to know them in a better sense. Um, not that people can necessarily hide behind a camera, but there’s, you know, there’s obvious sort of differences there.
[00:35:13] Um, And you’re able to build a personal connection better in person, although you can’t do it online. Um, for us, you know, we see Kenny pretty often, like at least once a month. Um, in some way, shape, or form. So, you know, when we’re with him, we like to do sort of these higher level conversations and strategy and goals and things like that.
[00:35:31] Just it’s better to do that in person if we can. Um, when we were getting to know people throughout our process, um, we did meet some people in person, which I think went a long way.
[00:35:42] Cole Hock: Sorry to cut you off. You should tell the quick story about what happened when you had the in-person meeting with Omaha at the cafe in Vegas.
[00:35:51] Oh yeah. Yeah. That would have never happened if it was a zoom call.
[00:35:54] Cody Hock: Yeah. Here’s a perfect example. So, uh, I’m with Kenny in Vegas. We’re meeting Omaha. We are going to the wind, um, to grab coffee and we walk into the restaurant. It’s like the owner of The Sacramento Kings is here. Chamath Palihapitiya is over here.
[00:36:13] Um, Jim Boeheim is over there. The Wagner Twins are all sitting around us. And I was like, oh my god, what are we doing here? Um, and we’re maybe like halfway through the meeting. Everything is going really well. And Kenny’s back is, uh, again, it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s facing me, which is not facing the entrance to the restaurant.
[00:36:31] And I look at the entrance to the restaurant and there is someone wearing our icy enjoy basketball t shirt. And I’m like, Oh my God, like that, like what, what a coincidence. I wish I had planted this person here. I probably should have done that, um, in hindsight, but we didn’t. And. I, you know, I, I said, Kenny, like, turn around and he looked and he was like, Oh my God, like, should I go up to that person?
[00:36:52] And then eventually he did. And I think for Omaha to see that in person went a hell of a long way. And it was a really cool moment that was not manufactured. Uh, and it was an organic interaction with our fans and our community that, you know, they could see firsthand. So yeah, you’re not getting that on zoom.
[00:37:12] What a good story.
[00:37:13] Tim Forkin: I’m trying to think of just like the, all of the perfect circumstances of you guys being in Vegas for that. Like,
[00:37:19] Cody Hock: you know what? It wasn’t even like, it wasn’t even a planned thing. So we had gotten on a call with them a few days before, and we just happened to be talking about, Oh, what are your weekend plans?
[00:37:29] And it was, oh, we’re going to Vegas for summer league. And he was like, oh, my son’s in a basketball tournament in Vegas. And I go, wait, we should meet in person like three days later. And it just happened. I, I’m such a proponent of the idea that like timing is everything. Um, and there’s just like a reason for some way, shape or form.
[00:37:46] I don’t know. I can’t explain it, but it really was perfect timing.
[00:37:49] Tim Forkin: The only way to make that story better is like, if one of Kenny’s like NBA player friends was in the restaurant too, and it was like, Oh, what’s up? Like that, that, I think you guys would have had a contract if you didn’t already. So yeah, that’s, that’s the only way that that, uh, would have gone better.
[00:38:03] I bring up the in person stuff. As far as like managing thing because you guys also host in person events as small as like a pickup run in new york city All the way you did the deal with like shopify and in person event there Like tell me like as like you guys are operators working with the creator um the benefits and like how someone could go about organizing like a proper event for their audience because Uh, the creators listening to this are at different stages.
[00:38:26] Like maybe they can host like a meetup in their city with maybe just a few people that are interested in their content. It can be, uh, someone who is on the biggest stages of their creator journey. Um, it has the biggest audience I’ve ever had. Like what goes into, um, doing an in person event properly, not obviously the benefits of, of the deals you can get done and the people you can meet to like, Level up your, your business, but, uh, for the audience itself and what that does,
[00:38:51] Cole Hock: I mean, it’s the biggest like community building tool.
[00:38:53] I think you could, you can have, um, Shopify, you know, we have hosted this pop up shop, they have a space in Soho here in New York and they were amazing because they were like, Hey, All we want to do is support creator businesses. We will supply the space we, you can bring your merchant. We’ll have our staff on site, you know, with, uh, POSs and you can take customers orders and we’ll, we, you know, we pitched them on this idea to like do a little stage where we could talk about building the brand in front of an audience and bring all Kenny’s fans in there.
[00:39:26] And that was amazing because it’s like actually meeting the people that are, you know, readers of the newsletter. People that have purchased our products. I mean, we, the coolest feeling in the world was like seeing, um, some of Kenny’s fans lined up at like, you know, nine, 10 AM in the morning before it even opened, like already wearing our merch.
[00:39:45] And like, for me, I, I lead up a lot of the lifestyle side. So like seeing that I was like, Oh my God, like, this is so amazing. Just seeing people that are passionate on this kind of level and, you know, wearing a product and being able to come in and, you know, we sold, um, a lot of hoodies and tees and like Seeing customers actually feel it.
[00:40:03] We put a ton of care into like the quality of the apparel and seeing them touch it and feel it in person like that goes such a long way, um, towards, you know, building, building new customers, building new fans, um, and Cody, feel free. You can touch on sort of the conversation that we had on the panel.
[00:40:20] Cody Hock: Yeah, I mean, I think from an audience perspective, community building number one, but yeah, Especially for like a digital creator, like Kenny, someone in more of the entertainment space, people have been building a connection with him for 10 years on YouTube.
[00:40:34] So like that, the idea of that parasocial relationship, you feel like you know him on a deeper level, but you’ve never had the chance to connect in person, you know, like. If I was a big Matt fan and I’m like, Oh, I see your, I’ve always seen your bike and your backpack every single time in your view. It’s like, I can always like go and talk about that one thing because it’s something that I’ve known or you’ve talked about it.
[00:40:57] Probably it’s like that connection point, um, with someone to develop. And I think, um, he’s done such a good job of cultivating that relationship that the second, You’re able to meet him. You know, that’s the reason why we had fans drive five, six hours to come to the event and show up and wait in line just to get a picture with Kenny.
[00:41:17] And I think too, during COVID when we, is when we saw a lot of the acceleration of a lot of people’s, you know, audiences, cause everyone is home and viewership was up. And so there was a period of time where you couldn’t be outside. And so I remember that one of the first events we even did with Kenny, he was, he was just like Florida, the amount of people that came out, you know, He was like, he was like, no, there’s no way that’s for me.
[00:41:37] And I’m like, yeah, like you gotta understand, like you are extremely, extremely popular and you’ve had such a profound effect on your community. And it’s just really, really cool to see. Um, and he’ll tell you the same, like just being able to shake someone’s hand and have them tell you how much they’ve, you know, You’ve mean to them over the years and how much your content has contributed to their life in some way.
[00:42:00] So it’s, it’s a very, very cool tool.
[00:42:02] Tim Forkin: Yeah. That point about, um, seeing someone out in the wild wearing the shirt or like people lining up to do it. I’m pretty sure I saw an enjoy hat. It
[00:42:10] Cody Hock: is the coolest feeling like ever. That
[00:42:15] Tim Forkin: feeling is like what I want for every creator listening to this is like, can you build something that lasts so long and feel so strong in people’s minds where like, you’re willing to wear it out in public.
[00:42:26] And like how many times have you guys accidentally seen somebody wearing like, like obviously the coolest is that story, but like see it out in the wild, like
[00:42:33] Cole Hock: one time. And it was like, I saw a guy at like a Nets game wearing a hoodie and he walked past me in the concourse. And I was like, Oh, I have to like run after this guy.
[00:42:44] And I eventually found, I found it and I took a photo. It was, it was a really cool moment.
[00:42:48] Tim Forkin: I used to call them like content souvenirs. Like I get on the content side is like, you can put something in someone’s mind that the last for them forever. And then like the physical version of that is like seeing someone in person wearing the gear.
[00:42:59] That’s got like, I can’t. I can only, um, imagine how cool of a feeling that is. That’s what I want for anyone. It’s such
[00:43:04] Matt Ragland: a, it’s such an interesting dynamic because one of the things I know, a lot of people who listen to this show, they are much more likely to sell like a million dollars in courses or digital products than they are to like sell a million dollars in Merch or even like much, much smaller level that, but I can think like, from my perspective, like I built a lot of my early, like, channel and content on, like, productivity and especially, like, these types of notebooks called the bullet, called the bullet journal.
[00:43:34] And for a while, I thought about doing, like, my own version of a notebook. And I think about, like, it’s one thing to, like, sell a course on productivity, and that’s, like, That’s awesome to make money that way, but the way that I would feel if I was like walking through the coffee shop and I saw like my notebook out on the table, that would be like a completely different amaze it.
[00:43:53] Like I would say an even better feeling than like selling a few courses, even though like say the notebook would be 30 and the courses 150, $300 or more. It’s a 10th of the value, let’s say. But like the feeling that you get from seeing like those, those physical things, like out in the wild is like, it’s the complete inverse.
[00:44:13] It’s like 10 times as good
[00:44:20] you know, those awesome HeyCreator newsletters that go out once or twice a week. The ones that sign off from me. Matt Ragland. Well, I’m not really writing those, not directly anyway. The reason those newsletters sound so much like me is because they’re coming directly from the Back Catalog of Content, and I have the team at Automatic Evergreen to thank for that.
[00:44:38] They research, write, edit, and send weekly newsletters all the time. On our behalf so that I can spend more time on the podcast and more time in the community. If you’re looking to send high converting newsletters that make you money, you can book a call at automatic evergreen. com.
[00:44:56] Tim Forkin: So I’ll tell a little story about my time working with Cody and Cole at enjoy basketball. Uh, right when I met them, I’m in Detroit and they’re in New York. And right when I met them, they had, uh, been talking to Detroit Pistons for probably, I think, two weeks at, at, at that point. And. The idea that they pitched was like an in person video to do with the Detroit Pistons.
[00:45:16] And I’m an editor. Like I, I’ve been on camera before, but I was working with Enjoy just to edit videos. And through the cold emailing and then the connections that Cody and Cole had made, um, the, what we settled on was me being in person to do a video with my Detroit Pistons. Like I’m the biggest Pistons fan.
[00:45:34] Anyone listening to this pod will ever find. Um, so. Cool. Awesome. Keystone moment of my career. What happened with the video is a story for a different time. But the idea that you guys got to build a partnership with an NBA team, which led to a full partnership with other NBA teams and the league itself.
[00:45:53] Connect that all the way to like the ESPN deal and enjoy basketball is at the level where you are partnering with like legacy ingrained in culture brands. Mr. Beast is like the only one. Maybe I think prime the Logan Paul. Uh, company, they just got on the Lakers jerseys, right? These are creator businesses that are now ingrained in like firmly in sports entertainment culture.
[00:46:15] Tell me like a, how that feels. And B, like how a creator, like it’s obviously situation dependent, but like what does a creator need to do to fully get to that level, to the highest level like that?
[00:46:26] Cody Hock: So again, it comes back to cold emailing. Cause that’s how it got done. Um, and reaching out to basically every team in the league.
[00:46:33] I think we’ve done, um, Almost 50 percent of teams in the NBA, some sort of partnership. And I think that will continue to evolve and grow over time, especially as we build our following, they don’t necessarily need to partner with us. We have a fraction of the followings that they have on socials. So I think it’s trying to position ourselves and give some value proposition where they can say, Hey, that is actually worth our time and.
[00:46:56] I’ll be honest. Some teams have told us like, it’s not worth our time. We haven’t worked with them. I won’t call out the specific teams, but I know exactly who they are. Um, but it’s trying to say, Hey, like we know, especially on social, you’re trying to reach a certain demographic. It’s likely Gen Z, some Gen Z, millennial hybrid, gen alpha.
[00:47:14] We own that demographic for basketball. So partner with us. All we do is spread positivity. All we do is uplift and celebrate the game. Let’s create a unique content piece angle towards that. Which you might not be thinking of, or you might not be doing on a consistent basis. Then, what happens is, we do something like that, um, you know, it appears on our socials as well, and then our community and Kenny’s community just flocks to that team.
[00:47:39] And the goodwill and the good value I think they receive from that, You can’t really pay for, um, you know, sports is really toxic. And I think if you can provide the space where, you know, we can celebrate and just try to be positive and do things in, in, you know, an uplifting way. Like, I think there’s a real need for it and that’s what we stand for.
[00:47:57] And I think teams have been able to understand that the ones that they, that we’ve worked with. Um, And so that’s our value proposition. I think they see that and they’re like, okay, that makes sense. Even though we’re not at a one to one ratio of followers.
[00:48:10] Tim Forkin: Yeah. I think the enjoy part of enjoy basketball is really the secret to like that.
[00:48:16] And, and almost everything is like, who can’t get behind like, Loving and appreciating the game in the case of your guy’s company. But if you can send a army of people at something who like want to celebrate it, like who would say no to that, even all the way up to the biggest companies in the world, who would say no to like, can I have a bunch of people come and like, cheer me on and celebrate me and appreciate what we’re doing stumbling upon that.
[00:48:42] And I think it was intentional with, with Kenny, obviously saying all the time. Like, I want to commend that and I would encourage any creator listening is like, how do you send a bunch of goodwill to somebody or something that you want to work with, right? Whether it’s actually a partnership that you get paid to do or not.
[00:49:00] Like, that act Is, is worth way more than in the, in the short term, it’s not, but in the longterm, it’s worth way more to like be known as the people who, who go do this, who send their community to these people who either could use it or really would appreciate the support is, is there like, can we productize like, uh, Hey, we’ll find a people, a bunch of people who love you and
[00:49:22] Matt Ragland: send them to you.
[00:49:23] Like, I mean, what’d you do with community? Sounds like, I mean, that seems like that’s the secret sauce, like that community element. You’re just like, yeah, I mean, these are my people and I am, I am these people. I mean, that’s not grammatically correct, but it’s like, then you can point them, like, in any direction, because you’re going there also.
[00:49:40] Cody Hock: Yeah, I think it’s so easy, everyone knows this, to find negativity online. Like, it’s It’s literally everywhere. There’s days where I just like, don’t want to go on Twitter or another platform because it’s just filled with toxic messaging. And I think, you know, the good always outweighs the bad as cliche as that sounds, and I think people are looking for escapisms when they go online.
[00:50:01] And if they can find that positive reflection or content, it goes a long way. And I think not enough people are. Are doing that because they’re getting free clicks and it’s easy to go viral by just hating and, you know, providing negativity. So,
[00:50:14] Tim Forkin: yeah, enjoy basketball for X, you know, that’s, that’s a, there’s a business model that you can, that someone can steal is like celebrate something that people are already tired of and put all the attention and resources behind.
[00:50:26] Amplifying the message of, Hey, you should go enjoy this thing. Can be basketball, can be cricket, like scrapbooking. It can be gardening. It can be fashion. That’s a really cool way to take this.
[00:50:42] Matt Ragland: Thank you for listening to the HeyCreator podcast. This show was produced by Tim Forkin and would not be possible without. The support of our incredible team at HeyCreator and the HeyCreator community. Make sure you connect with us on all of the socials at HeyCreator Hey, and for more information on our company, go to HeyCreator.com and also sign up for the newsletter while you’re there. See you next time.
